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southernfist



USA
58 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2006 :  21:58:07  Show Profile  Visit southernfist's Homepage Send southernfist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
SD hing-dai:
My Sifu is still alive but we have had a bit of falling outYears back. He(Sifu Yee) Did also mention of the Green and Ching/manchu government. When the Expression "Get the Ching" was considered an act of rebellion Most Lion Dances changed it to "get the green"
Spitting of the green is the same to spread wealth and if you didnot you can give it to the owner. So he can all the wealth.

AS for my Si-hings most did not know as you mentioned and if they did they were not going to share

As for the splitting it is the peel being pulled back into 4 sections. another was just ripping the oranges while the other I remember was giving the Oranges to the Owner or relatives of the owner.

Pertaining to the snake puzzle.
I remember listening about this puzzle where you have a spear as the body two Oranges as the eyes and pair of butterfly knives as the fangs.You eat/pick the fangs left/right then the eyes left and right. Then you eat the body place it aside.
Then at the end the participants do a spear and butterfly two person set.



Southern Fist
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Yogi5



USA
34 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2006 :  18:05:08  Show Profile Send Yogi5 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally, never did the fish puzzle. The older brothers used to talk about that puzzle. Basically, the fish is hanging (wrapped on string or rope) and is out of the water. Therefore, it will flop around alot giving the image of San Mang (lively). The lion dancer must be able to get to the fish and including the lettuce, unhook it and bring it down to the store owner with the fish still being alive. If the fish dies before handing it to the owner, it is considered bad luck. Once the store owner recieves it, he places the fish back in a tub of water. Then the Lion goes back up for the red envelope and unravels a scroll (usually good business fortune like Sang Yee Hing Lung). I heard the older brothers say the hardest part of this puzzle is being able to hold the fish because it is so slippery. Some would use a knife to cut the rope, then holding the rope (as the fish is still tied to it). I heard that one lion dancer had a cloth pouch where he placed the fish in it and was able to climb down and then pull the fish out in time. Most lion dancers like the shoulder stack ( or they can sit on the shoulders of the tail) that way they can jump down quickly. Some lion teams even just hand the fish to the tail guy first then get it back from him to finish the puzzle. Either way, its all good.
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SleepingDragon



78 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2006 :  05:42:48  Show Profile  Visit SleepingDragon's Homepage Send SleepingDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good Traditional Chengs

Singapore CNY 2006
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Yogi5



USA
34 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2006 :  15:19:40  Show Profile Send Yogi5 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I love how they write out the Chinese phrases with the different fruits, lettuce, green onions, etc... SD, so does the phrase get eaten? If I were under the head, I bring a wok and do some stir-fry Just kidding. I do love how the different cultures does some things differently. Go Singapore!
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SleepingDragon



78 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2006 :  16:38:54  Show Profile  Visit SleepingDragon's Homepage Send SleepingDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When I went to Singapore and Malaysia they ended up putting it on a big plate presented it to the proprieter of the temple and they end up putting it on the alter.

The ones in the picture though are to many and to big. After its done and admired and pictures are taken, they probably remove-I wouldn't eat it as don't know where the guys hands have been.
: 0

By the way, as I said my chinese is non-existent and since I can't plug the oranges into an electronic translator (probably spit it back out and say patoey, can you read and tranlate the phrase or words Yogi?.
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Yogi5



USA
34 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2006 :  17:57:42  Show Profile Send Yogi5 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sure, I will use the pictures number and translate the word for you.

cny042.jpg: Dye Gut (big 'tangerine' or wealth)
cny048.jpg: Dye Lay (big wealth)
cny049.jpg: Dye Wong (big 'rapid wealth')
cny050.jpg: Dye Fook (big wealth)
cny052&053: Dye Fat (big prosper)
cny2012.jpg: Yut Bune Dye Lay; not exactly sure how to explain this one, something like "one comes forth with big fortune".

I know I said 'big wealth' several times even though the chinese characters are different but their meaning are all the same. Just different ways to say it.

Question SD, please educate me and some others here. When they have the snake (formed by the apples and oranges), does the lion eat all the fruits? Or how is it played? What or how do they eat the pineapple? What about all those chinese characters, does that get eaten by the lion head as well?
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SleepingDragon



78 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2006 :  12:43:07  Show Profile  Visit SleepingDragon's Homepage Send SleepingDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Yogi5


I know I said 'big wealth' several times even though the chinese characters are different but their meaning are all the same. Just different ways to say it.


No, I understand perfectly what you are saying, when I first started using an electronic translator I would go huh? Then I'd ask my mother and she'd explain. Would get pissed off if asked her to translate (more because her eyes are not good now), alot of it she said would depend on what it was combined with.


quote:
Originally posted by Yogi5

Question SD, please educate me and some others here. When they have the snake (formed by the apples and oranges), does the lion eat all the fruits? Or how is it played? What or how do they eat the pineapple? What about all those chinese characters, does that get eaten by the lion head as well?



To be honest I have never done this one and I would think it would depend on the theme. I tried to ask a couple of singapore people, but they either did not want to or would not want to explain. I understand, because it is now very competitive in Singapore and letting new startup clubs in on it would just infringe on them. A lot of people rely on the cheng to help pay rent and other things. Pineapple if I remember correctly is called wong lai and said to mean "luck had arrived". Apple is ping (?) so it means peace. Remember you can either spell out something with chinese characters using the fruit or give it back to the owner, chew it up and spit it out after ripping it apart or give it away.

When I and 2 others talked with Master Lim Meng Kok of Malaysia, he explained about the Dragon Cheng which has 36 tangerines and included a pineapple and pomelo. You give away the tangerines to by standers but keep 8 and give it along with the pineapple and pomelo to the proprietor on a large plate.

As for the characters re-read my previous post.

Edited by - SleepingDragon on 02/14/2006 12:54:49
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hasayfu



USA
95 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2006 :  15:42:45  Show Profile  Visit hasayfu's Homepage Send hasayfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just found this thread. Good discussion. Not much time but I will answer Yogi's question.
The characters are not the chang. They are the result of the chang. If a chang is made up of several fruits and vegetables, they must all be dealt with.

I'll just use a simple chang because the more complex ones are just variations on the theme. This is a common type chang for Malaysia. Let's use the 7 stars and the moon chang with 7 tangerines and a Pomelo as the moon. The lion must approach the chang in a traditional manner. The approach is important to taoists and old timers. Then the tangerines are taken in a certain order. For this chang, it's every other but not always with a circle chang (like the bagua). The lion will take the tangerines and hand the first 3 to the tail. The head will then eat 2 (one at a time) and spit them to the audience. The last two will be kept by the lion head (some times this is done in reverse). Then another traditional approach to the Pomelo, eat and sleeping lion. During the sleeping lion, the tail is peeling the tangerines and using the wedges to make the writing you see. For this chang, cny 049.jpg Dai Wong is most common. Sometimes the Dai is left out if there aren't enough wedges. If there are extra, the tail eats them. :) He holds on to the peels or gives them to the head to be spit. This writing is used for a business.

The Head is playing sleeping lion and peeling the two tangerines and Pomelo into a lotus leaf configuration. He will most likely have a knife. I'm surprised I don't see any lotus images. Depending on how fancy, the lotus fruits are presented to the owner or just left on the floor. That's why SD says it's just to be admired and not eatan.

For the snake, every fruit needs to be dealt with. All eaten and either spit out or used in a display. Each item is supposed to be handled individually but I'm not sure about the snake with Sooo many pieces. I have not seen that chang performed. The traditional snake is suppose to have fangs (knives) and eyes (tangerines) with a spear for a body. The fangs are dealt with first. (and sometimes a set is done) then the body (again a set) then the eyes.

This is not meant to be a detailed description to perform the chang but to get the idea of what the pictures show. My sources come from a variety of places through my many years of lion dancing. I got the pomelo chang from my uncle who is NOT a lion dancer but an instructor at a Bai He school in JB, Malaysia and my viewing of his school's team while they perfromed this chang at my father-in-law's business. Like I said, I've seen this chang played out many times in Malaysia.

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SleepingDragon



78 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2006 :  12:56:44  Show Profile  Visit SleepingDragon's Homepage Send SleepingDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hasayfu,
Glad you finally made it.

I'm glad people are discussing the different ways they do the common puzzles. There are differences, no one way is the absolute correct way, as long as they follow certain guidelines should be okay. Customs differ slightly village to village, province to province.

Any puzzle one does always need to know intent (theme) so that the lion can convey message. I know people will split pomelo like an orange to make the lotus, but you can leave the pomelo intact and just give proprietor-just you like you do with orange. Everything depends on what you trying to convey, if get theme must convey to express theme, no theme, then express your own wishes to person. Pomelo="to have" given with Tangerines it is to express "to have prosperity/wealth". Peel to make lotus flower and given with oranges is to say "good fortune/luck blossum even in the harshest conditions (because the lotus flower as beatiful as it is can blossum in the harsh winter and the murkiest of waters.).

The way I learned the snake is after investigating (going around the snake) you jummp from behind. Also the lion never crosses the front of the snake after the initial face to face encounter. If you do you lost, cause it just bit you. You can make fancy by jumping over, back and side to side with stacks before restraining snake. Then you blind snake by taking oranges one at a time and shreding and tossing inside door or at least at doorstep (to signify good luck/fortune comes thru the door or to ones door step. Then you defang the snake followed by eating the body. A good lion dance will make like the lion is struggling with the snake in various ways. Then take the greens and li see or hong bao. Body on this sugar stalk or spear. Some will wrap the money around the spear. Some will do kung fu sets if spear used, another when spear eaten and spit out will have someone wield the spear and attack lion (lion now doing battle with snake spirit.). Ends when lion disarms spear from wielder.

Sugar cane will be crunched up and snake will exfoiliates it at the tail. Both when doing Kung fu, lion go sleep.

The third, with several pieces of bamboo of different lengths or something similar is done the same as above except when taking the pieces (this may include oranges/eyes), the lion depending on theme-will make a character using the bamboo and/or oranges. Example: Theme Good Fortune in the Year of the Sanke-you make the character good fortune or Fuk (if you make it upside down it is like saying Good Fortune Arrive in the Year of the Snake. This puzzle obviously can only be done in the year of the snake. However, if the persons sign is pig cannot do this puzzle cause snake is the pigs enemy (in Chinese zodiac opposites don't attract.).

Edited by - SleepingDragon on 03/11/2006 15:47:01
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Yogi5



USA
34 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2006 :  16:07:28  Show Profile Send Yogi5 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wonder if anyone has a video of eating the snake. It was a long time ago (1970s) when I last saw someone perform the snake puzzle. The one with the spear and butterfly knives.
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SleepingDragon



78 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2006 :  20:41:22  Show Profile  Visit SleepingDragon's Homepage Send SleepingDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Yogi5

Sure, I will use the pictures number and translate the word for you.

cny042.jpg: Dye Gut (big 'tangerine' or wealth)
cny048.jpg: Dye Lay (big wealth)
cny049.jpg: Dye Wong (big 'rapid wealth')
cny050.jpg: Dye Fook (big wealth)
cny052&053: Dye Fat (big prosper)
cny2012.jpg: Yut Bune Dye Lay; not exactly sure how to explain this one, something like "one comes forth with big fortune".


Yogi5, take a look at the link again
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Take a look at picture cny2030.jpg-this is a continuation of cny2012.jpg. This is one of those where the lion has to finish the phrase. Just like starting with Tien Hsia (Under/Beaneath heaven-Earth) and changing it to Tai Ping (Ultimate calm-Peace) to get peace on earth-you must use everything and not have any excess.
Again please translate 2030 for me and the others-thanks.

quote:
Originally posted by Yogi5

Question SD, please educate me and some others here. When they have the snake (formed by the apples and oranges), does the lion eat all the fruits? Or how is it played? What or how do they eat the pineapple? What about all those chinese characters, does that get eaten by the lion head as well?



Okay-this is what they finally said-3 lions attack-but you don't jump on the apple or fruits(else they go squish)-take all the oranges and apples, lion go sleep and spell out a phrase using the oranges only. At least thats what one said. (Apples by the way represent peace or the phrase "safe/without mishap" (ping an).
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Yogi5



USA
34 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  13:04:49  Show Profile Send Yogi5 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello SD,

CNY-2012 is Yut Buen Dye Lay (Arrive with great prosperity)
CNY-2030 is Nien Nien Yow Yue (Every year has 'fish')

Thank to all for explaining the fruits and how the words are created for the chinese phrases. That makes alot of sense now. I think it is wonderful how the different Asian cultures do things just a bit differently everywhere. I never knew about the lotus leaves (from the orange skin) until the Vietnamese group did that here. Something new for me.

Also, fyi to everyone out there. I will be moving to the LA area at the end of March. So if you have a group (lion teams), please give me holler, I want to meet with all groups there and share my little bit of knowledge with everyone. By working together, we get to promote Lion Dancing that much more. United we stand, Divided we fall.
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SleepingDragon



78 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2006 :  01:18:23  Show Profile  Visit SleepingDragon's Homepage Send SleepingDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Yogi.

To continue this thread, I'd like to hear what people were told about why they do the snake puzzle, what it represents. The Snake Impedes the path is a common cheng that is done several ways, but what were you told?

I was taught that it represents on one hand the bad luck that impedes any good fortune coming to that business. Removing it allows good fortune to come to the door. On the flip side, snakes represent healing rebirth and renewal (this is because as they grow they shed their old skins). Also, like the bat that can represent the fu or fuk character for happiness good fortune and blessings, the snake also sounds the same (fu/fuk).

If you have been to my website you should have seen a section showing chinese words that sound the same and their english meanings. This should help better understand Chinese word play and it relation to lion dancing.
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Yogi5



USA
34 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  12:15:04  Show Profile Send Yogi5 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good question SD,

Why we do the different Chengs? I am ignorant as to the 'why'. As a youngster, I just listened to the elders. Now that I am older, I would like to know the why and even how the Chang came about.

I remember back in the 70's and 80's, students of Wan Chi-Ming and Frank Yee did alot of puzzles. I hope to meet with Sifu Yee one day to ask these questions. Perhaps students from these two lineages would like to chime in and help us out. I will also ask Liondancer but I know he has been busy lately. HaSayFu, any thoughts as to the origins or the 'why' to some of these puzzles?
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SleepingDragon



78 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2006 :  05:07:57  Show Profile  Visit SleepingDragon's Homepage Send SleepingDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Common Guys Help me out here post your knowledge. I think you'd be surprise at what someone might not know, including me. Interject whatever you can.

Crab Formation (Haai Cheng/Xie Qing)
With this Cheng the Greens and Hung Pao are placed under a large bowl, pan, Chinese bucket or something similar to represent the crabs body or shell. The shell which is called gaap/jia is also a reference to the imperial examinations in which a person placed 1st in the order of the exams. This is a blessing for prosperity thru status. The legs and claws were normally made of chopsticks or bamboo and the eyes were either oranges or tangerines.

Like all animal puzzles, the lion and the crab face off only once, before the Lion circles the crab to investigate. Then using the same panache as you would with the snake, the Lion will retreat, jump forward, backward, stack, jump side to side, over, roll away, and etc, all the while displaying the many different emotions. Eventually the lion will jump the crab from behind. This time, only the head player needs to land on the crabs legs and claws. Then the eyes or orange/tangerines are removed one at a time, ripped apart and spat back out or the oranges/tangerines may simply be tossed so that they roll into the store, household or to the person of honor. The claws are then removed by the head player. The legs can be simply kicked out by the Lion. At this point, the head player can use his feet to grab and toss the shell aside or for showmanship toss it in the air and grab it with the Lionís mouth. This would be quite a feat as the playerís vision is limited and to show your hand(s) darting through the mouth for all to see is a sign of poor skill. Sometimes the lion will make a word or saying with the oranges and bamboo, again all depends if there is a theme. In any event, the Lion can then go after the Cheng. Remember, when going after the greens itself, the Lion must always approach it three times as discussed earlier, before finally taking it on the third approach.
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