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Tailik


USA
124 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2006 :  16:22:45  Show Profile  Visit Tailik's Homepage Send Tailik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm sure this topic has been covered before, but can you northern players describe northern kung fu's distinguishing characteristics and techniques please?

i'm looking for another perspective.

thanks
Tailik

Gold Horse Dragon



Canada
133 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2006 :  10:46:02  Show Profile  Visit Gold Horse Dragon's Homepage Send Gold Horse Dragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is a lot of northern styles! For Bak Sillum it is the width of the stance, long arm moves and mobility, kicks - inside/outside crescents and high front slap kicks being a distinguishing feature of the kicks
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n/a



11 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2006 :  12:43:25  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The norm of Northern style (beishi), especially the styles classified as long fist (changquan), i.e., beishaolin (northern young forest), chaquan (examining fist), fanziyingzhaoquan (turning-over center eagle claw boxing), etc.

Therefore, letís look at the foundation mainstream:

1. Footstep/stance (bu) is gongbu (bow footstep), were as in southern style (nanshi) is the mabu (horse footstep).
2. Fist (quan) is usually the standing fist (liquan) in beishi and in nanshi it is pingquan (level strike).
3. Beishi main striking hand is the (dashou) the willow leaf palm (liuyezhang); were as the nanshi uses the pushing palm (tuishou).
4. Qiao (bridge) for southern is the forearm (shou) and for northern is the leg (tui)

However, we must take into account both group possess these characteristic. Also, they are particular style within these grouping that possess characteristic that isnít the norm for this particular grouping, i.e., bajiquan (eight extremities boxing), which use short hand theories, etc.

Edited by - n/a on 02/04/2006 12:43:49
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Gold Horse Dragon



Canada
133 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2006 :  11:23:16  Show Profile  Visit Gold Horse Dragon's Homepage Send Gold Horse Dragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mulong

The norm of Northern style (beishi), especially the styles classified as long fist (changquan), i.e., beishaolin (northern young forest), chaquan (examining fist), fanziyingzhaoquan (turning-over center eagle claw boxing), etc.

Therefore, letís look at the foundation mainstream:

1. Footstep/stance (bu) is gongbu (bow footstep), were as in southern style (nanshi) is the mabu (horse footstep).
2. Fist (quan) is usually the standing fist (liquan) in beishi and in nanshi it is pingquan (level strike).
3. Beishi main striking hand is the (dashou) the willow leaf palm (liuyezhang); were as the nanshi uses the pushing palm (tuishou).
4. Qiao (bridge) for southern is the forearm (shou) and for northern is the leg (tui)

However, we must take into account both group possess these characteristic. Also, they are particular style within these grouping that possess characteristic that isnít the norm for this particular grouping, i.e., bajiquan (eight extremities boxing), which use short hand theories, etc.




There is a general rule to 'not generalize' ;)

Both northern and southern use ma bo and gung chin ma (bow), southern has both fist formations whereas the northern system I know uses the standing fist (yut gee choy, southern likes to use the palm heel strike whereas northern uses the willow leaf palm. Northern is uninterrupted from beginning to end whereas southern has some spots (dependant on set) where there will be a stop and dynamic tension bridge hand. Both southern and northern use the bridge hand, but southern emphasizes it more. Northern uses a greater variety of kicks and kicks higher than southern.
The greatest distinguishing feature(s) is the southerns use of animal hand formations such as fu jow and dynamic tension in the sets while northern likes to use long arm movements and really extend the punches from the shoulder (southern tends to hold back somewhat and execute punches from short range...there are exceptions though like sow choy.

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Alerten22



USA
104 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2006 :  00:02:42  Show Profile  Send Alerten22 a Yahoo! Message Send Alerten22 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am totally generalizing right here in hopes to help clerify an answer. This answer (no offense) comes from a question that shows through his words that has no or very little experience in the matter of Northern Styles.

Often times Northern Chinese Martial Arts are internal or have some sort of internal aspects to them that is the foundation of the art. I believe the foundation of lots of southern Martial Arts has no internal aspects. Although Southern Martial Arts have a good amount internal aspects. Still you can learn much of the art and be good at it without working on your internal aspects once you have learn more good deal of the style. (as internal end up coming to you naturally anyways, although nothing like actually practicing the internal aspects as from teachers that have been taught by people that have truly MASTERED IT.) In northern style it becomes your foundation it is the heart of your art, if you are a Northern Chinese Stylist.

Please correct me if i mis said anything, as i am not a practitioner of Southern martial Arts, although my teachers are both Northern and Southern, and i learn what i understand from them telling me the difference often times.

The Rigid person is a disciple of death; The soft, supple, and delicate are lovers of life. -Lao Tzu
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Alerten22



USA
104 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2006 :  02:00:28  Show Profile  Send Alerten22 a Yahoo! Message Send Alerten22 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is Generalizing once again but i found this very important to say

I would like to say that the system of Mok Gar and Hung Gar are primarly Short Range Attack and defense systems and most people think of Southern as shorter range. This isn't true, as there are some very good traditional southern styles that are long range. just not as widely known as Southern Short Range Systems known in the U.S.. There are Northern Styles that have a good amount of short range attacks and specially short range blocks/deflects/redirections/Chi-Na. (not so sure about ground fighting although there are Kung Fu's that are ground fighting!)

I believe if you looked for it you could find a generally all short range system that is northern.

The Rigid person is a disciple of death; The soft, supple, and delicate are lovers of life. -Lao Tzu
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Alerten22



USA
104 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2007 :  01:42:10  Show Profile  Send Alerten22 a Yahoo! Message Send Alerten22 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All that i typed is based on characteristics you see in Long Fist... or things that coenside with Long fist... which is a more popular Northern style that (to my knowledge) completely internal. So i was generalizing

The Rigid person is a disciple of death; The soft, supple, and delicate are lovers of life. -Lao Tzu
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hungfu



USA
8 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2007 :  03:15:55  Show Profile  Visit hungfu's Homepage Send hungfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The characteristics of most Northern Kung-Fu systems are light springy footwork, high kicks, jumping kicks, leg splits, smooth movements, large open hand movements, long range, middle range, short range and inch power.
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ironmantis3



USA
4 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2007 :  12:21:28  Show Profile Send ironmantis3 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Having practiced both north and south, I have come to the opinion that 90% of the perceived differences that everyone holds in the north vs. south debate are superficial at best. The simple truth is there isn't that much difference at all. I use the same stances in my mantis that I do in my hung gar. I use the same punches, most of the same kicks (the exception is the long "stretching" kick in hung), similar throwing tendencies (using root in stance and upper body torque to trip, uproot and throw an opponent). Both systems have use of external and internal. Like I said, the differences are merely in appearance (superficial), the intent and uses are largely the same.

Typical example. Horse stance. Why do you use horse stance? What are the characteristics? Its rooted, balanced, strong and allows one a position to link the entire body in movement. This makes that movement great for both offense, defense, throwing etc. But there is a structure involved to make such things possible. Of course, that is why we practice the stance. If however the structure is off, then the power cannot be maximized. The test is in its use, functionality doesn't lie. If you are in good position for the situation, it works...if not...it doesn't. So from a perspective of functionality, how can there be a difference in a nothern horse stance vs. a southern horse stance? There isn't.

Now there ARE differences in WHICH stances may be used, WHICH strike may be used, etc. But again, that is just superficial. What is the purpose? There in lies the similarities. Example, about half the mantis 12 keyword formula is the same as the 12 bridges of hung gar. They might be applied in a different stance, different hand, but the principle is the same. And when a northern kung fu guy does his Mabu, it should be the same as the southern guy he's fighting. His bow stance should be the same. His cat, etc. That's if they train for functionality, and not just what looks appealing.
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hungfu



USA
8 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2007 :  16:18:28  Show Profile  Visit hungfu's Homepage Send hungfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote

ironmantis3,

I agree that the Northern Kung-fu systems and say, "Hung-Gar" have the same stances such as ma-sek, kung-sek, ding-sek,...etc.

However, the way a northern student is taught to use his/her stances are very different from someone practicing Hung-Gar.

Northern styles use different level stances, different energy, different way of moving from stance to stance and a different way of using the stances in combat.

Northern stance training and southern stance training is very different.




Chief Master Kenneth Edwards
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ironmantis3



USA
4 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2007 :  21:52:47  Show Profile Send ironmantis3 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hungfu


ironmantis3,

I agree that the Northern Kung-fu systems and say, "Hung-Gar" have the same stances such as ma-sek, kung-sek, ding-sek,...etc.

However, the way a northern student is taught to use his/her stances are very different from someone practicing Hung-Gar.

Well, not really. At least not in my experiences. The uses I learned in Hung gar are very much on line with the uses I learned in N. Mantis. And truth be told it was a real eye opener for me because I always had my preconceptions about southern kung fu before I started training Hung gar. Then I learn apps and such and I couldn't help but be surprised at how similar it was when you get to actually putting it into play.

Northern styles use different level stances, different energy, different way of moving from stance to stance and a different way of using the stances in combat.

This is somewhat true, but its not at the same time. Northern styles may have a different emphasis on which stances may be used, however body mechanics are body mechanics. And because of this, a certain structure must be made for effectiveness. This is of course determined by the situation but thats why we train to be perfect in structure as possible in hope that it will be a effective as possible in a fight which things don't go as "perfect as possible." But level of stances is determined by your need at the time. Moving from stance to stance; in extreme cases yeah (monkey kung fu) but really, I have 2 legs, you have 2 legs (I hope) so there can't be that much difference. Both use the same stance, bridge the legs, trip, sweep, uproot, etc. Really we have the same stances there is only so much variation that can be made. As for energy, there are only so many ways we can move. For the most part we cover the same things.


Northern stance training and southern stance training is very different.

This I very much agree with you on. And its bold for me to say but this is part of the problem. A lot of the northern kung fu stylists I have met have not adequately trained the proper structure of their stances. Like I said its a bold statement, but fuctionality doesn't lie.


Chief Master Kenneth Edwards



There is only so many ways we can move. Most complete systems are going to pretty much cover the same things. In appearances it might seem different but when put into actual use things aren't so distant. Crane's beak is not much different than Mantis hook which is a lot like monkey hand. Whats the difference if you grab a wrist with an eagle's claw or a tiger? The same leg hook I learned to be a "signature move" in mantis can be found in Gung Gee. The elbow break too.

I will concede that there are certain unique moves to a certain system. But that has more to do with the system in question than whether it is a northern kung fu or a souther kung fu.

The better comparison would be to ask what is the difference; Non-Hakka or Hakka styles.
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Alerten22



USA
104 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2007 :  16:30:42  Show Profile  Send Alerten22 a Yahoo! Message Send Alerten22 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ironmantis3


ironmantis3,

There is only so many ways we can move. Most complete systems are going to pretty much cover the same things. In appearances it might seem different but when put into actual use things aren't so distant. Crane's beak is not much different than Mantis hook which is a lot like monkey hand. Whats the difference if you grab a wrist with an eagle's claw or a tiger? The same leg hook I learned to be a "signature move" in mantis can be found in Gung Gee. The elbow break too.


There might not be THAT much differences, but there are differences... If you become a master of one... and just learn a good ability of another. you will see lots of similarities. If you become a master in two... you can clearly identify the differences and its variation in uses. Now don't get me wrong I'm not bashing you. Not saying your not a great practitioner and I'm not saying I'm better then you. I know your better then me when it comes to fighting, and many other things in martial arts. Just saying that i think your missing some key information. Although I'm no master in the matter so i couldn't explain the differences, that in the end turns out much different. (don't mean to be so bold to say so...) I've been told that in the end mastering two martial arts, end up coming together in the best possible way to create power. Its just how you get there. Although those aren't my words... i do believe it until someone proves it wrong.

quote:
Originally posted by ironmantis3

I will concede that there are certain unique moves to a certain system. But that has more to do with the system in question than whether it is a northern kung fu or a souther kung fu.


I totally agree wholeheartedly!

Btw I know some Northern Mantis that is taught use adopt the southern way of stances. Anyway the real point behind saying that is might i suggest you can't only use your Northern Mantis that you learned to base all of Northern Styles. I do believe there are quite a bit of Northern styles that differ from eachother quite a bit, not just in appearance. Although I most likely have no room to talk.

The Rigid person is a disciple of death; The soft, supple, and delicate are lovers of life. -Lao Tzu

Edited by - Alerten22 on 07/07/2007 15:36:15
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ironmantis3



USA
4 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2007 :  22:06:47  Show Profile Send ironmantis3 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alerten22

quote:
Originally posted by ironmantis3


ironmantis3,

There is only so many ways we can move. Most complete systems are going to pretty much cover the same things. In appearances it might seem different but when put into actual use things aren't so distant. Crane's beak is not much different than Mantis hook which is a lot like monkey hand. Whats the difference if you grab a wrist with an eagle's claw or a tiger? The same leg hook I learned to be a "signature move" in mantis can be found in Gung Gee. The elbow break too.


There might not be THAT much differences, but there are differences... If you become a master of one... and just learn a good ability of another. you will see lots of similarities. If you become a master in two... you can clearly identify the differences and its variation in uses. Now don't get me wrong I'm not bashing you. Not saying your not a great practitioner and I'm not saying I'm better then you. I know your better then me when it comes to fighting, and many other things in martial arts. Just saying that i think your missing some key information. Although I'm no master in the matter so i couldn't explain the differences, that in the end turns out much different. (don't mean to be so bold to say so...) I've been told that in the end mastery of one or more, seems to meld together its ability into the most powerful way of doing so. Its just how you get there. Although those aren't my words... i do believe it until someone proves it wrong.

You're right, there are differences. But a lot of them are superficial. Its like, in northern styles you might see a straight punch more often done in cat stance or in mantis often sevenstar, where as in southern styles it is more typical in horse riding. But there are still times when a northern practitioner has to buckle in and drive through with "southern" force and to do that, we use our horse riding or bow stance. And its going to have the same mechanics as when a southern fighter uses such strike in such stance (cuz mechanics are mechanics). In turn, if a southern fighter happened to strike in cat stance it will be similar mechanics as the northern fighter. That's just how we are shaped. Maybe its easier to say that a northern style might prefer certain techs and a southern style might have a different preference. But when we use these techs and the human body is still going to govern the mechanics involved and because of this we are limited in the diversity that we can use. That's why I say, a northern horse stance is no different than a southern one. When I bridge in my northern material we use a simple palm but the intent(energy) is still the same as kui sow. And I agree if you can become skilled in two different methods they will meld. Its inevitable. I remember when my Hung Gar sifu pulled out some mantis on me. He did those moves on me better than I've yet to pull off on anyone. You get good at the mechanics of one thing and another thing just falls right in. Which is just one more indication to me, that when you get down to the fundamentals of movement, the differences aren't near as broad as the similarities.

quote:
Originally posted by ironmantis3

I will concede that there are certain unique moves to a certain system. But that has more to do with the system in question than whether it is a northern kung fu or a souther kung fu.


I totally agree wholeheartedly!

Btw I know some Northern Mantis that is taught use adopt the southern way of stances. Anyway the real point behind saying that is might i suggest you can't only use your Northern Mantis that you learned to base all of Northern Styles. I do believe there are quite a bit of Northern styles that differ from eachother quite a bit, not just in appearance. Although I most likely have no room to talk.

Yeah, mantis has been altered to fit with just about every stepping method out there. But we use the same basic stances. We shuffle, jump, hop, etc. This is the same as any other system though. We might hop more than hung or southern shoalin and not as much as monkey or drunkards. But when you hop, shuffle whatever its still the same. Cuz we got the same legs, with 2 feet, ankles, knees etc.


I guess its just a difference of perspective. I base my observations on intent and effect. The "look" to me isn't as important as what was done.

Its a good discussion. I like the points you bring up. I don't think I'm all that great a kung fu'er myself. I've just had the opportunity to travel a lot. Trained in different systems, lived in Japan a while and trained there. I'm still a beginner though. I just had to make it a habit though of relating the different stuff I learn through the similarities otherwise I would get nowhere. That's why I like discussion like this because I want to learn something new too. Even if its just a change in perspective.

Edited by - ironmantis3 on 07/06/2007 22:09:42
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hungfu



USA
8 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2007 :  00:48:02  Show Profile  Visit hungfu's Homepage Send hungfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote

ironmantis3,

I agree that we all have two legs, two arms and when we kick or punch it is "still" a kick or punch.

However, there is a very big difference between Northern styles and Southern styles in the way they are taught to attack, defend, apply ging, train footwork, apply hand techiques, apply kicking techniques, ground techniques, set-up fighting combinations and the way their body has been taught to move.

Now I am only going by my experience training with friends/masters who have been training and teaching Hung-Gar (Grandmaster Lum Jo Branch) for over 30+ years. And based on what I have seen as, well, as the many years of conversations about Hung-Gar training, theories and applications it is very different from the way I was taught the Northern Eagle Claw system (Grandmaster Shum Branch) from my teacher.

When my Hung-Gar friends and I would work out, play fist forms, play weapon forms and touch hands (sparring) the way they used their blocks, power, stances, kicks...etc. were as different as night and day.

In fact, if you look at systems such as Chut Sing Tong Long, Tai Chi Tong Long, Wah Lum Tong Long or Tai Chi Muy Fa Tong Long the footwork is light, quick and springy whereas Hung-Gar is more solid, but again very different.

I agree, that a skilled martial art master can look at most systems and pull applications from the forms and make the techniques work.

However, if you show me a northern stylists performing a Hung-Gar set I promise it will have a northern flavor.

Show me a southern stylists performing a Northern Eagle Claw set and I promise it will have a southern flavor.

Why? Northern styles and southern styles train "very" differently.



Sincerely,



Chief Master Kenneth Edwards
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Alerten22



USA
104 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2007 :  15:32:32  Show Profile  Send Alerten22 a Yahoo! Message Send Alerten22 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wasn't talking about a northern Stylist melting together... i was talking about there in theory has only ONE WAY to create the most amount of power. Then there are different ways to do so. Each way is used for a specific use. Because variations aren't just a variation but yet there another choice of a way you can use skill depending upon the situation now take that in fighting and make it you ability to naturally choose which ever one you want in a fight at a split second. What i experienced as Northern the way they generate power is much different then my schools way teach there Five Family style and Hung Gar. but i don't practice Five Family style, nor Hung Gar. But i have asked why it looks so different my teachers show me its a different way of creating power.

Throughout my experience i SUCK at generating power the way my school teaches Southern styles. But i can generate just a little nice smooth power with my northern. Sure body mechanics is body mechanics but the way you use different variations have different outcomes automatically. Thats just my experience though i thought that was the same everywhere that is me assuming.

The Rigid person is a disciple of death; The soft, supple, and delicate are lovers of life. -Lao Tzu
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hungfu



USA
8 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2007 :  17:05:25  Show Profile  Visit hungfu's Homepage Send hungfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alerten22,

Are you a student of Sifu Norman Smith of the Tien Shan Pai system?

If so, tell your teacher that Sifu Edwards said, "hi".


Sincerely,


Chief Master Kenneth Edwards
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