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Unicorn PM



2 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  11:37:10  Show Profile Send Unicorn PM a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Quick question and Hi, you guys don't see 16 as the first form proper ?

Very nice Sam Tong by the way.



Edited by - Unicorn PM on 11/14/2006 11:39:07
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meltdawn



338 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  14:19:47  Show Profile  Visit meltdawn's Homepage Send meltdawn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yes and no. Sup Luk Dong and Sup Ji are both sort of short preliminary sets. neither delve into the footwork as thoroughly as Sarm Tong, and all ensuing sets. however, we do consider forward stepping practice, crescent stepping practice, single and multiple hand drills in conjunction with Sup Luk Dong to be a very solid foundation. once these things are hammered into a brain, the longer sets become digestable, therefore not just good exercise, but an encyclopedia of technique and combinations. not to mention footwork.

_____________________
kung fu? i'm only here for the eggrolls.
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dragonclaw



USA
735 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  18:23:05  Show Profile Send dragonclaw a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, it depends heavily on the sifu. For example, Yip Wing Hong doesn't teach Sup Ji as part of his cirriculum(at least when I was there he didn't). He goes from Sup Luk Tung to Sam Tong, so it just varies.



With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan...to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
Abraham Lincoln
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Unicorn PM



2 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  06:00:48  Show Profile Send Unicorn PM a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was taught Sup Luk Dong then Sam Tong, but with a Ma Bou Gin Choy stepping set before that, which is/was taught as more the foundation to build everything else upon. Much like Jik Bou in Pak Mei.
There are so many hands in SLD that I see it as more the first set (even though there is no respect at the beginning, which I suppose does indicate that Sam Tong is the first 'proper' set)

Of course we know that one of the sons only used to practice SLD, and I can kinda see why.

Good comments thought Lynlee. :-)

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dragonclaw



USA
735 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  12:10:57  Show Profile Send dragonclaw a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think Sam Tong is the first "proper" anything. In all honesty the only real LY form is Mor kiu. Lam sijo was taught the other sets to add certain principles to his alll wround fighting. It was Lam that structuralized the style into what it looks like today. Remember Sam tong was taught to him by a Taoist monk.

I also sgree with you on Sup Luk Tong. If you master this set you have all the hands of the style, and you should have begun developing the internal component of the style. In higher forms like Fa Gik you learn different ways the style expresses that ging



With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan...to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
Abraham Lincoln
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BillH



211 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  12:48:09  Show Profile  Visit BillH's Homepage Send BillH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"I also sgree with you on Sup Luk Tong. If you master this set you have all the hands of the style,"

i dont necessarily agree with this (maybe Sarm tong)...especially as you point out mor kuil. of course you only need a few hands to apply it and too many is probably detrimental anyway. i do agree that the internal development begins right away.


"In higher forms like Fa Gik you learn different ways the style expresses that ging"

also depends on which version of fa gik.


"A man who discovers that he is being boned by an enemy is, indeed, a pitiable sight."

Edited by - BillH on 11/15/2006 12:57:25
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dragonclaw



USA
735 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  17:11:39  Show Profile Send dragonclaw a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All of the hands of the style are cultivated in Sup Luk Tung. Mor Kiu is mainly an expression of the body and sensivity of the style rather than the hands themselves. It's how we touch bridge instead of what we touch bridge with. Besides, the hands throughout the system are variations of 1st form, therefore the hands and groundwork for the energy are actually developed in first form, while Mor Kiu develops the shape, nature and fight character of the style. Sam Tong should begin the internal process in how one crosses the bridge with structure, angles, and energy.

Well the main idea of Fa Gik was formed from Dragon's ability to work well against other internal styles, namely Tai Chi. So, no matter which version of the form you know the main idea is the same. I think that will come down to the teacher rather than the form.


With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan...to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
Abraham Lincoln
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BillH



211 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  20:06:56  Show Profile  Visit BillH's Homepage Send BillH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
DC-
"All of the hands of the style are cultivated in Sup Luk Tung."

dont agree...i say sarm tong.


"Sam Tong should begin the internal process in how one crosses the bridge with structure, angles, and energy."

yes i agree with this....that is why i say that sup luk tung does not cultivate all the hands...i guess its in interpretation.


"Well the main idea of Fa Gik was formed from Dragon's ability to work well against other internal styles, namely Tai Chi. So, no matter which version of the form you know the main idea is the same. I think that will come down to the teacher rather than the form."

i have seen different versions with different energies, but yes they are to defeat tai chi.





"A man who discovers that he is being boned by an enemy is, indeed, a pitiable sight."
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dragonclaw



USA
735 Posts

Posted - 11/16/2006 :  02:29:19  Show Profile Send dragonclaw a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well if we're really to get technical, The hands of Lung Ying are first taught in Mor Kiu, the only actualy LY form. Sam Tong was taught to Lam sijo by the Taoist priest Wong Lee Giu. The energy is not that hands themselves, but what becomes the primary source of one's power. I'd say that Sam Tong is the intro to combinations that are unique to the style, but the hands are developed in the forst form, as well as the energy


With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan...to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
Abraham Lincoln
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BillH



211 Posts

Posted - 11/16/2006 :  06:36:48  Show Profile  Visit BillH's Homepage Send BillH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
dc--

i guess when i think of 'hands' i think about the feet especially because to me the hands and feet cannot be separated. sup lok tong does have the 'hands' but it does not connect them with the feet. the hands won't work like LY with sup lok tong alone. IMO. one of the most important things in LY as you pointed out are the angles. its the angles and the feet that hit people. MD and i email eachother back and forth all day about LY and she'll say one thing and then i'll say 'what about this' and then she'll say 'well what about this!' and we have the same teacher!

"A man who discovers that he is being boned by an enemy is, indeed, a pitiable sight."
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meltdawn



338 Posts

Posted - 11/16/2006 :  10:18:02  Show Profile  Visit meltdawn's Homepage Send meltdawn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ok, i have WAY too many forms, so here is my take on the progression.

16 teaches some foundation hands, some foundation body mechanics(tun and to), and some foundation footwork (bik bo). 16 has one range, forward movement, and one direction of energy.

the beginner forms teach crescent stepping, basic fighting footwork, angles, kicks, jumps, groundwork. all you need for being a good fighter. beginner forms have 3 ranges, 4 directions of movement, and all the directions of energy, but not comprehensive until internal work comes into the picture.

the intermediate forms begin to train the body on internal work, starting with Mor Kiu. Mor Kiu is for the body and the feet, not the hands (if a player can execute the form well, it's because of the body, not the hands). this is why it is considered a "Master's form". the intermediate forms teach the hands' use at different gates and angles, and long and short power. you CANNOT be effective with weapons in this style until you have a grasp of internal.

the advanced forms teach against particular styles, and advanced footwork which now comes from internal, and not external powers. the hands and feet become simply an extension of the body, just like the dragon itself.

and all along this journey, the combinations are set up to produce chigung without the player having to think about it.

just my humble opinion. glad for everyone's input.
_____________________
kung fu? i'm only here for the eggrolls.

Edited by - meltdawn on 11/16/2006 10:27:45
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mysteri



USA
17 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2006 :  03:49:11  Show Profile  Visit mysteri's Homepage  Send mysteri an AOL message  Send mysteri a Yahoo! Message Send mysteri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
man, that lung ying is very beautiful to watch. as you performed it, i can definitely see differences now between that and bak mei.

from an outsider point of view (but also from a gung-fu man's), i can definitely see that it took you a long time to develop the attributes that you have. your foot-->leg/knee-->hip/waist/trunk/shoulder-->arm/elbow-->hand coordination is very smooth and sinuous. also, i feel that you have clear tun-toe-fou-cham expression in your techniques and transitions. it really does look like one continuous movement. we strive for a similar concept, "leen waan kuen" (continuous fist) in jow ga (not the mantis jow ga; hung tao choi mei, the long-hand style), just expressed in a different way.

so i know that as we spoke about, higher-level dragon stresses internal development. meltdawn mentioned before that the hands joints are never quite fully extended (an agreeable concept) which helps aid in continuity. i'm curious that if the core (i'll say hips, waist, trunk + shoulders) were relaxed more, hands were not quite as extended, and there were a greater emphasis on being more compact and regulating a strong breath, would this strengthen the internal power for external expression?

my train of thought is that by shortening the techniques a bit, the hands wouldn't have so far to go in the small circles, making the techniques smoother, faster (better relaxation), and able to utilize more internal ging from the tigher decompression and compression maybe? of course this would mean that a greater work-load would be put on the core and the horse, which means this is where we now focus the relaxation development of. if the horse is strong, but relaxed/smooth, of course the footwork will be both more agile and reliable (shorter-base, faster footwork, strong integrity).

i'm not at all a short-style specialist, i simply am currently finding myself fascinated with it's principles and mechanics. thank you for entertaining the miniscule thoughts of a passer-by.

"Pride builds walls between people; Humility builds bridges."- Rick Warren
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BillH



211 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2006 :  11:37:37  Show Profile  Visit BillH's Homepage Send BillH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
mysteri--

thank you.


"i'm curious that if the core (i'll say hips, waist, trunk + shoulders) were relaxed more, hands were not quite as extended, and there were a greater emphasis on being more compact and regulating a strong breath, would this strengthen the internal power for external expression?"


Yes, in regards to the core being relaxed. The body should be relaxed, but connected. My body is not relaxed enough, although i think it is connected. Relaxation should help with more potential energy to be released. About the hands not being as extended...i am not quite sure what you mean. If you mean simply the hands being physically 'shorter', then i would say no. The hands have to 'finish' otherwise they will not come back and there will be no circle, or the circle will not be continuous. Also, the hands can be extended and still have very good energy with the development of 'short power'. This is an advantage in that it obviously allows more options. Basically, if you can have power when your hands are extended, then you will have power when they are shorter (probably more as power seems to dissipate the further it gets from the core). But I am not sure if that is what you are asking. The circles can be bigger or smaller and i think IMO at a certain point it is a matter of choice. When applying, typically the larger circles are more effective until contact is made, from my perspective. I look at the hands in the form as simply keeping the motor running and this should be continuous, in my ananlogy, the motor is put in gear when contact is made. Thats just how i view it right now...may change next month if i have some epiphany. :)



"A man who discovers that he is being boned by an enemy is, indeed, a pitiable sight."

Edited by - BillH on 12/06/2006 13:12:58
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mysteri



USA
17 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2006 :  13:10:50  Show Profile  Visit mysteri's Homepage  Send mysteri an AOL message  Send mysteri a Yahoo! Message Send mysteri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hey bill, i think that you have a good analogy. i'm always re-evaluating my own perspectives as well, else we wouldn't grow, right?

i think i understand what u mean as far as the circles are concerned. i think in my head, i was feeling was that you've made a lot of strong progress in understanding and expressing the mechanics of that form-- good tun toe fou cham and expressing the ging mechanically/externally. i think that we agreed that now that u've become pretty proficient at this level, you were looking to focus more on soft internal development. to me, i was wondering if you were to compress your total body just a bit more when starting, expanding, then contracting the techniques, if it might create a little more internal pressure into your structure (you can relax more , and when you TTFC, the pressure will be compensated for. i was wondering if this is the next step toward greater power from the relaxation.

from another view point, most people think relax, they think less power. so this, where does this power come from? well to me, it is developed from compression and decompression exercises. like in jow ga, we have dynamic tension exercises. or a more common example, hung ga uses the "iron wire" training to develop and strengthen the internal "pump" for greater expression of internal power.

i would liken it to if you have a cold small rubber-band (stiff body), it will not be able to stretch very far and create enough potential energy to shoot far when released. but if u work on that rubberband (your internal development training), after a while it will warm up and stretch out enough and will get to a point where it is more relaxed/flexible, and can store more potential energy for velocity/power when released. now even though that analogy breaks down, i liken that to internal development.

as far as circles, what i was saying is that if you shorten your circle with your hands, you would have to compensate for the distance lost with your feet. but since your hands may not be so outstretched, u can apply more internal ging (from say the internal inch punching principle) and not have to rely so much on the mechanical expression. without knowing your sifu, i would bank that he his probably able to do this. again, i sincerely appreciate you allowing me to explore these ideas with you. even in the end if we don't come to an agreeance, it could be worse--we could be practicsing taekwondo! (j/k-but no, seriously, lol)

"Pride builds walls between people; Humility builds bridges."- Rick Warren
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BillH



211 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2006 :  13:23:16  Show Profile  Visit BillH's Homepage Send BillH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"from another view point, most people think relax, they think less power. so this, where does this power come from? well to me, it is developed from compression and decompression exercises. like in jow ga, we have dynamic tension exercises. or a more common example, hung ga uses the "iron wire" training to develop and strengthen the internal "pump" for greater expression of internal power.

i would liken it to if you have a cold small rubber-band (stiff body), it will not be able to stretch very far and create enough potential energy to shoot far when released. but if u work on that rubberband (your internal development training), after a while it will warm up and stretch out enough and will get to a point where it is more relaxed/flexible, and can store more potential energy for velocity/power when released. now even though that analogy breaks down, i liken that to internal development."



Yeah I agree. My Sifu uses a very similar analogy with the rubberband. The more you stretch it, the more it bounces back...but not one of those old cracked rubber bands...you stretch them and they just break. The relaxation allows the joints to move freer and with less 'friction' and a greater range of motion. i also agree about the greater compression allowing for greater expansion or even 'explosion'; pak mei and some tong long seem to use that. It is in LY, but I dont know if I emphasize that while doing forms...sparring and other exercises i do. yeah, i did tkd a looong time ago. i got bored.


"A man who discovers that he is being boned by an enemy is, indeed, a pitiable sight."

Edited by - BillH on 12/06/2006 13:27:44
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