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 Weight lifting and internal arts
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BillH


211 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2006 :  15:44:15  Show Profile  Visit BillH's Homepage Send BillH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just read a speech given by Li YaXuan (disciple of Yang Chengfu) in the 1950's discussing internal arts/ tai chi and he notes that people practicing internal arts should not lift or train with weights as it deadens and makes less sensitive the nervous system. He basically said that it would negate your work as the two would cancel eachother out. He also advised against the practice of harder arts as they would have the same effect. Fu Zhen-Song trained with weighted stone/cement balls and was obviously a high level practioner. Anyone have any opinions from their practice? Does weight training or harder training (i.e. sandbag, conditioning) negate or hinder the development of intent that is needed in the internal arts? Or does it restrict chi flow? Thanks Bill
BTW, I have begun an exercise in preparation for Tai Chi and I have noticed quickly a difference in Chi flow into my hands and arms. I have spent years hitting/kicking bags/poles/trees and have felt increased chi, but this feels different. My hands feel even heavier than when I hit the bag for an hour at a time, but in a different way. However, I know that I would not feel this at this point without all the years training to this point, even though it has been 'hard' training. Just very excited that my training is taking a different direction.
"A man who discovers that he is being boned by an enemy is, indeed, a pitiable sight."

Edited by - BillH on 07/11/2006 15:55:59

3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2006 :  16:40:52  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good to see you found the correct method of internal to train thats what ive been saying all along and by the way YKM uses the stone and metal balls for power. I cant say how taiji use the ball but YKM uses its with the 3 circles amongst other things. If you have been conditioning your hands for yrs mate, dont you think they need a rest?

Why not try cotton palm more internal and penetrating?

Go soft power!!! :)
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meltdawn



338 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2006 :  16:51:02  Show Profile  Visit meltdawn's Homepage Send meltdawn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yeah bill. try penetrating.

_____________________
kung fu? i'm only here for the eggrolls.
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3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2006 :  17:31:28  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Meoooooooooooooooooooowwwwww, melty i was honestly giving and answer without the smart ass comments, not you want me to bite and start again!? ;)

I LUP 4 YOU!

Edited by - 3 Circle Method on 07/11/2006 17:35:36
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n/a



517 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2006 :  23:10:36  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought you guys were getting a room!

P.S.-What does LUP stand for?
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BillH



211 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2006 :  22:07:20  Show Profile  Visit BillH's Homepage Send BillH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
what are the weight ranges on the stones? Just curious. I see that as being similar to many kettle bell exercises in that they dont seem to contract the muscles so much on some exercises and can have the effect of opening up range of motion while strengthening joints. I was thinking more about just weight lifting in general. wondered if anyone has experienced any sort of effects with weight lifting with their arts. Such as does it restrict chi flow or hinder relaxation and softness?



"A man who discovers that he is being boned by an enemy is, indeed, a pitiable sight."

Edited by - BillH on 07/12/2006 22:19:48
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3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2006 :  02:36:40  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
starts from 5 kilos to over 20 kilos, but the heavy and light have different purposes. I havent done kettle bells but would like to try them although i dont know if it would give me the type of strength i prefer like i get from the ball workouts!

I know there are taiji ball dvd dr yang has them i havent seen them too comment but he is a great chi kung teacher i think my darling melty learnt from him some time ago?

I do think that the muscles need a workout but not in a sense of tension like dynamic tension or normal weight lifting but still its good for you but not where i want it go. I think that as long as you are exericising you are doing something good in a way.

garry
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BillH



211 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2006 :  08:54:00  Show Profile  Visit BillH's Homepage Send BillH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
wow, those get pretty heavy if it is one hand at a time. Yeah, the kettlebells will be different but much more similar than typical weighlifting depending on which exercises you choose. great for core and building lower-upper body connection. I'd probably get big and strong like DC if i could only eat more! haha

"A man who discovers that he is being boned by an enemy is, indeed, a pitiable sight."
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3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2006 :  16:06:30  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ball training also works the core plus you dont need to be big and strong just explosive that comes from the dan tian and spine.

I think those kettle bells are too expansive and similar to weightlifting i guess alot better then weightlifting but still similar.

Garry
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meltdawn



338 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2006 :  18:23:25  Show Profile  Visit meltdawn's Homepage Send meltdawn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i think kettlebells are more like a ditch-digger workout. like if you have a job doing concrete, or loading trucks, your body gets naturally overall strong. can't get that with weights because they only train one or a small group of muscles. garry, like Fu with the great heavy stone ball, i got these small rubber ones to try. interesting workout. they are also good to drop on abs like a medicine ball, only you can drop a couple on someone at a time and get faster reactions.

_____________________
kung fu? i'm only here for the eggrolls.
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3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2006 :  18:47:32  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
definetly lynlee, the balls can be used for massage as well, well in YKM we use the balls for massage, flexabilty, strength, power, chi training intersting thing just a simple ball that works on 3 planes rather then 1 plane like weights.

I have a nike rubber medball for some of my workouts, good to see you guys doing some ball training funny thing is the medicine ball has been around in western training since the 1800's in america, all the top athelets use them for balance and core strength, plyometrics etc, but has been part of shaolin kung fu for over 2000yrs.

Just the ball alone in YKM its a major part of our health program and great for people with joint problems or helping recover from injuries.

I hate concreting and labouring type work so kettle bells are off my list! ;)

Garry
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hu tei



USA
70 Posts

Posted - 07/14/2006 :  18:38:41  Show Profile Send hu tei a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by meltdawn

i think kettlebells are more like a ditch-digger workout. like if you have a job doing concrete, or loading trucks, your body gets naturally overall strong. can't get that with weights because they only train one or a small group of muscles. garry, like Fu with the great heavy stone ball, i got these small rubber ones to try. interesting workout. they are also good to drop on abs like a medicine ball, only you can drop a couple on someone at a time and get faster reactions.

_____________________
kung fu? i'm only here for the eggrolls.

You hit it right on the head about the kettlebells melty! They do give you that "bred for hard labor" kind of physique, not the "I can't scratch my own back" physique so popular in gyms nowadays. "bodybuilding" makes bloated body parts that don't know how to work together, kind of like a frankenstein. I think this is what most people are refering to when saying it interferes with martial arts training, and I would agree with that. "strength training" or better yet, "strength practice" will always be benificial to martial artists or just everyday people. I would really like to see or hear more about these YKM "ball" workouts 3cm. What are the movements like?

"we train with kettlebells in case civilization is temporary"
-Pavel Tsatsouline

" c'mon pookie, let's burn this mutha****a down!"
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3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 07/15/2006 :  06:32:47  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are many different exercises some for different skills, some for soft body some for hard body, dragon body, soft power, wrestling, etc. Its very unique i havent seen another art that use the ball and was designed from the ball ever. Taiji use the ball also but i havent seen then but taiji wasnt build around or from the ball just an exercise. Bagua use ball and LHBF use ball but differently!

What would you like to know?

Garry
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hu tei



USA
70 Posts

Posted - 07/15/2006 :  14:23:53  Show Profile Send hu tei a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 3 Circle Method

There are many different exercises some for different skills, some for soft body some for hard body, dragon body, soft power, wrestling, etc. Its very unique i havent seen another art that use the ball and was designed from the ball ever. Taiji use the ball also but i havent seen then but taiji wasnt build around or from the ball just an exercise. Bagua use ball and LHBF use ball but differently!

What would you like to know?

Garry

Well, there are lots of different kettlebell excercises, but most agree that the "swing" is the core movement. It's the first thing you learn, it teaches you the skill to move to the other movements, and no matter how advanced you get, it never loses it's value. You always come back to the swing to re-learn it, kind of like coming back to the core sets of your art and finding things you didn't see before. I was just wondering if your ball training has a move that most represents the training in general. Also, how do you hold the ball? is it easy to grip or not? what is it made of? any pics? I'm mostly curious to find similarities between our systems, because I have always believed that the chinese invented EVERYTHING, and history just keeps finding more things that the chinese gave to the world, and then forgot those things themselves. The clock, ice cream, ....etc.

" c'mon pookie, let's burn this mutha****a down!"
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3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 07/15/2006 :  17:40:01  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You hold the ball in 2 hands and it has core movements, there is a very simple clip on my site but it aint the real method i chucked it up to show we have ball training.:)

The ball trains every muscle in a yau kung manner still keeps the flexible power and not rigid strength.

What style you do?

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hu tei



USA
70 Posts

Posted - 07/15/2006 :  19:00:55  Show Profile Send hu tei a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I couldn't find the pic on your site garry. Very cool site though I practice hung ga kuen mostly.

" c'mon pookie, let's burn this mutha****a down!"
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