Southern Kung Fu Net Online Community
Southern Kung Fu Net Online Community
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Southern Styles
 Other Southern Kung Fu Systems
 The Element Hands of White Crane
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

shihfu


Australia
90 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2006 :  21:50:56  Show Profile  Visit shihfu's Homepage Send shihfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Element Hands of White Crane, as taken from the "WCRI White Crane Gate Research Guide"

Within White Crane, the theories of Yin –Yang and the Five Elements (Wu Hsing/ Wu Xing) figure prominently. The Wu Hising/Wu-Xing basically is a theoretical building block upon which rests a number of White Crane responses. It states that the universe is based upon five elements: Earth, Metal, Water, Wood and Fire. Each of these elements are related to each other. In theory, each element generates the next one. For example “Water generates Wood, for without wood there cannot be growth. Wood is the fuel to create Fire, and it is the action of Fire on organic matter that produces Earth. Metal is generated from the earth and these purify Water and this returns to feed the trees and so the cycle continues. There is also a cycle of destruction used in Dim Mak.

In the White Crane system, the five element theory can be applied to the arms in terms of power generation. Specific areas of the arm are identified with particular elements. The tip of the fingers (used to strike) is Gold or Metal (Jing). The wrist is associated with Wood (Mu), the forearm is Water (Shui). The elbow with fire (Huo) and the shoulder with Earth (Tu/Too).

The theory is applied to each part of the arm that comes into play in life-protection and the application of White Crane. For example, contact upon the forearm (Water) implies that I can counter strike with the fingers (Metal). If my strike is blocked, I rotate my wrist (Wood) and continue my counterattack. If contact comes closer to the elbow then the Fire element comes into play. If my opponent block my elbow then I bring the Earth element (my shoulder) into play.

In Baihequan/Miquan (“Secret–Fist”), the element theory of Metal (Jinshou), Wood (Mu), Water (Shuei), Fire (Huo), Earth (Tu) and Gold (Huangjin) are of paramount importance as these form the basic essence of the art. There are 5 major techniques embodying the essence of Baihequan. Each is named after the elements of traditional Chinese philosophy.

From here, all other methods and variations are developed and the encouragement of refinement (Li-Jing) is then pursued. The aim being to seek knowledge (Qi-Zhi).

The “Element Hands” are also known as the “Loosening Exercises” within the Huang Shen Shyan lineage of White Crane Fist and are supported by long experience.

The Element hands use a wave of expansion from ground - shooting arrow and emphasises wave of stretching and compression that precedes wave of expansion - drawing the bow

Wood-Hand: the characteristic of Wood is "straight," so Wood-Hand trusts straight through fingers.

Fire-Hand: the characteristic of Fire is "expanding upward," so Fire-Hand points fingers upward, and Qi goes out at the heel of the palm.


Ron Goninan demonstrating the Lian huang chuang xing zhang (Interlink Penetrate-Heart Palms - Fire Hands) from the HuaBaBu form. This technique uses pulse energy or Jing to attack the heart with devestating effect. The HuaBaBu form teaches the use of "Sanzhan" (Three Wars or Combats) to "Simen" (Four Doors). It teaches one how to inhale and bring in fresh Qi, link together Qi and store energy, make pulse concessions, conserve oxygen, exhale Qi, sway Qi and stimulte the circulation of blood and shake Qi and produce energy expression.


Earth-Hand: the characteristic of Earth is "receiving," so the fist-like Earth-Hand can take punishment and deliver power to strike the opponent's body.

Metal-Hand: the characteristic of Metal is "changing," So metal-Hand changes in form, can be used to block or counter-attack.


Front view of the Shiho Tien Sh-It (Feeding Crane Open's it's Wings). The body position (Tiwei) is held supple and relaxed and is likened to a bow with the limbs being the arrows (Zhang). The energy is lead by the mind through what is known as Xinyi (“Intention”) and delivered via Zhiqiao (“Limb Skill”). White Crane Kung Fu is a soft style which focuses on short ranged hand techniques, with a strong emphasis on applying Dan Dou Qin (Chi tremor).

Water-Hand: the characteristic of Water is "flow downward," so Water-Hand flows or flushes downward.

Tuxinshou - Tushou / Earth Hands - Fists Strike.
This is a basic way in which to develop Yin & Yang in all fist Punching and Striking techniques.

Practising even the most basic method develops speed and relaxation in punching.

This type of punching is fast, relaxed and natural and originates from the centre of the practitioners body.

In addition, this basic method of punching can be used to protect the centreline of the body whilst engaging in a counter-offensive move.
Earth techniques are those which “ground” or connect the body’s energy with the mother earth element as shown above. The Earth Element techniques are like a bullet.

Sueixinshou - Shueishou / Water Hands
This uses the outer and forward movement of inner parts of forearms and hands in both defence and offence. When used as a “receiving” technique, the relaxed yet powerful motions of the arms result in a deep penetration of the opponents attack. The motion of the arms results in protection of one’; s own centreline. It is also effective as a striking method using the fingers and back of the hands. Water Element techniques are like Wave.

Muxinshou - Mushou / Wood Hands
This basically involves striking with the fingertips, the palms (as in slapping) and the back of the hand and forearm. It is especially useful in attacking the pressure points of the body. The thumbs can also be bought into play as a striking tool. Its use is likened to the Crane striking with its beak and head. As with the other Element Hands, relaxation and natural movement are the keys here. Wood Techniques are those that “Thrust” outward from the body like a sharp spear.

Huoxinshou - Huoshou / Fire-Hands
These include devastating Palm strikes and is also known as “Double Dragons Swim out to Sea”. The Fire Hand's application has both palms striking forward. The hands are held flat and one should pay particular attention to the index and pinky fingers. They are in a pulled back mode, indicating an issuing of energy as opposed to storing energy. Also the thumb of the hands supports the other two fingers in a energetic issuing principle. The stance is the San Jiao Ma or Tri-Angle Battle Stance, the feet (in regards to the turning of the toes) are again not in a fully "open" or "closed" position. This causes the activation of K-1 on the bottom of the foot.

It is usually taught by most as a "push" similar to that seen in Taiji. However it can also be a strike to the Liver 13 (Zhangmen - System's Door) points by varying the height and timing of the strike. The direction of such a strike would be straight inwards with the left Liver 13 point struck then the right Liver 13 point. The Liver 14 (Qimen - Expectations Door) can also be struck in a slightly inwards manner (laterally across the body).

Stomach 15 (Wuyi - Room Screen) and or Stomach 16 (Yingghuan - Breast's Window) can also be targeted to great effect (Stopping the heart!) This use a type of "squeeze" action of the elbows causing the hands to strike in a counter clockwise and clockwise fashion.
The eyes as are also viable targets for such a technique.

Jinxinshou - Jinshou / Metal Hands
This is one of the Element Hands as seen within the Shihequan (Feeding Crane) style and is known as "Jinshou" or Metal Hands.

It is a strong attacking technique which utilises the Crane's Head and Crane's Beak as the primary hand forms. It embodies the quiet yet deadly intention of the Paihepai (Crane-Fist Style) known as Yitu - Chinese "To Kill". Metal Element techniques are round and cutting.

The Five Element Hands of Baihequan:
The hand method of Baihequan are famous for the 5 Elements, called 5 Elements Hands (or 5 Forms Hand) – Wu Xin Shou, including Metal Element Hands (Jinxinshou), Wood Element Hands (Muxinshou), Water Element Hands (Sueixinshou), Fire Element Hands (Huoxinshou) and Earth Element Hands (Tuxinshou), - 5 types in total. These 5 Elements Hands are the basics of Baihequan.

If humans have nothing, but water and fire, he will struggle to stay alive, but he will survive. In martial arts is the same, “The Fist Scripture” says:
“Kung Fu cannot exist without water and fire”.

Therefore in Baihequan’s 5 Elements Hands the basics of all techniques are the Water Element Hand and the Fire Element Hand. Through these two one will also be able to reach the peak of this martial art. There are many ways to use these two basics. They work together with Metal Element Hands, Wood Element Hands, and Earth Element Hands, and if used as a complete system, will protect one’s body from top, middle, bottom, left and right, as well as one will be able to use them in attacking the enemy from top to bottom, and from both sides.

The explanation of 5 Elements Hands Practice:
We shall begin from Water Form Hands, and follow with the Fire Form Hands, Metal Form Hands, Wood Forms Hands, and Earth Form Hands in that sequence. Please, practice them realistically.

1. Breathing
While practicing keep breathing naturally. When you pull your hands to your torso inhale, and when you extend your hands out, exhale.

2. The method of using the strength
When you start practicing, don’t use any strength. You will add the strength later on, while you progress. Otherwise it will be impossible to improve.

An idiom says: “to teach how to make a fist is easy, but to correct already formed fist is difficult”. If you learn with mistake at early stage, it will be much more difficult to be corrected. Therefore don’t rush when you start. The most important thing is to practice slowly.

“The Fist Scripture” says:
“Practice 3 times more in one day, practice 9 times more in 3 days, then the long term result will be harder than metal”.

The key point in learning the Fist is:
Practice whenever you have time, and if you continue in this manner the improvement will come without fail. Otherwise, if there is no improvement for some time, then it means that you have practiced not enough.

“The Fist Scripture” says:
“The hand and a willow, the fist like a bullet, metal turns round, wood must be sharp, water must create waves, fire will bring wind, earth will trail death”.


I'm a person, a seeker, not a "martial artist"

Edited by - shihfu on 05/25/2006 22:01:42

3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2006 :  18:43:50  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron,

Great read thanks, would u work a certain element depending on your element body?

Are you striking with certain element fist to certain points on the body to breakdown the destruction or creation cycle since this is based on dim ma and dim yuet striking?

The problem i have with all this info is its doesnt matter what element you use cause as long as you win its a good hand. Any comments, great for talking kung fu theories and breaking down forms but when in real time you arent thinking any elements you just react.

Garry
Go to Top of Page

shihfu



Australia
90 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2006 :  21:54:42  Show Profile  Visit shihfu's Homepage Send shihfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Garry,

quote:
Hi Ron,

Great read thanks, would u work a certain element depending on your element body?


Thanks ... its all mine LOL! (inside joke ). Finally some discussion about the art without politics To answer yes for example when working the Fire Hands one assumes (embodies/internalises) the element in question.

quote:
Are you striking with certain element fist to certain points on the body to breakdown the destruction or creation cycle since this is based on dim ma and dim yuet striking?


Yes! This is one of the founding principles of Baihequan Dim-Mak.

quote:
The problem i have with all this info is its doesnt matter what element you use cause as long as you win its a good hand. Any comments, great for talking kung fu theories and breaking down forms but when in real time you arent thinking any elements you just react.


So true.As a Security Operative (Doorman and Crowd Controller) I have to agree you 100%. It all comes down to the situation at hand and all too often anything and everything goes in life-protection.


I'm a person, a seeker, not a "martial artist"

Edited by - shihfu on 05/26/2006 21:55:39
Go to Top of Page

3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2006 :  22:47:17  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You still studying the Bubushi?

Garry:)
Go to Top of Page

shihfu



Australia
90 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2006 :  23:47:46  Show Profile  Visit shihfu's Homepage Send shihfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Garry,

I've studied the Bubishi in most of its various "interpretations" (as this is really what they were) but have found it very basic in the information it had to offer. I certainly don't view it as the "Bible of Karatedo" as others might.

I prefer to place my energies into the study of my chosen art (Calling Crane) and dim-mak principles.

I'm a person, a seeker, not a "martial artist"

Edited by - shihfu on 05/26/2006 23:48:29
Go to Top of Page

3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2006 :  00:04:06  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great stuff, what do you think the major differences with the crane systems dim mak to the bubushi points and theories? Years ago i got deep into the points and theories of YKM but at the end its endless, but its a great way to tear apart the form and its applications i must say.

I know that differences can occur for dim mak depending on teh type of Ging you use, this is the tricky part. Maybe thats why the different gings in your system?!

Garry

Go to Top of Page

shihfu



Australia
90 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2006 :  05:16:39  Show Profile  Visit shihfu's Homepage Send shihfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Garry,

I guess that the point theory and applications of White Crane is quite extensive when compared to that as shown only briefly within the Bubishi.

Yes it's and endless study and one that sometimes can be quite exhausting. I use my friend Erle Montaigues "Encyclopedia of Dim-Mak Vol 1 & 2" as a reference for the various points we manipulate, seize and strike. Its the most comprehensive by far.

I suspect your right when it comes to the various manifestations of Jing/Gings in White Crane.

Thanks for the discussion.



I'm a person, a seeker, not a "martial artist"
Go to Top of Page

Kew-Do



USA
920 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2006 :  07:03:08  Show Profile  Visit Kew-Do's Homepage Send Kew-Do a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes but don't you think this "Dim MaK" is really about hitting points to create para-sympathetic reponses? Is there really a flow of energy that is any different from the other technician of a martial artist who is just targeting that area or point. I mean I understand Iron Palm and conditioning the hands for striking, but isn't that it? Are the strikes any more powerful with Dim Mak? Not disrepecting anyone I just find it hard to believe in supernatural chi powers, even though I do believe in chi flow! I just don't believe in the supernatural stuff.

Kew-Do

Give me a fish and I eat for today....Show me how to fish so that I can teach others to catch them for me...
Go to Top of Page

dragonclaw



USA
735 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2006 :  11:40:40  Show Profile Send dragonclaw a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Di Mak striking is more about percision hitting than different energy hitiing. As in accurpuncture, the point is a nerve center, so the needles can surpress the nerve, percise striking of the nerve canhave different results. But from what I've learned so far, it's not so much about different energies used but when the energy in the point is at it's apex or height, and what combination of points cause what kind of damage, and lastly what organs the points are connected to.

If you do not give up the crowds
you won't find your way to Oneness.
If you do not drop your self
you won't find your true worth.
If you do not offer all you
have to the Beloved,
you will live this life free of that
pain which makes it worth living.

Go to Top of Page

shihfu



Australia
90 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2006 :  21:35:15  Show Profile  Visit shihfu's Homepage Send shihfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It all depends upon your approach and studies I guess.

Dim-Mak can be effected simply by striking the points in the correct manner and this requires the right energy transmission.

I approach Dim-Mak from a two-fold manner: 1/. From a TCM point of view. 2/. From a Western Science viewpoint. This works best for me.

As it is Dim-Mak plays a major part in my Calling Crane.

Great discussion. Lets keep it going!



I'm a person, a seeker, not a "martial artist"
Go to Top of Page

dragonclaw



USA
735 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2006 :  00:20:19  Show Profile Send dragonclaw a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And what TCM points do you incorporate, and likewise what western points?

If you do not give up the crowds
you won't find your way to Oneness.
If you do not drop your self
you won't find your true worth.
If you do not offer all you
have to the Beloved,
you will live this life free of that
pain which makes it worth living.

Go to Top of Page

shihfu



Australia
90 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2006 :  20:53:12  Show Profile  Visit shihfu's Homepage Send shihfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dragonclaw,

Just about all the points of TCM can be used in a Dim-Mak manner. We combine the TCM points with Western Science.



I'm a person, a seeker, not a "martial artist"
Go to Top of Page

3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2006 :  22:06:23  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ron,

Forms are the thoughts of the past masters to pass down information which i truely understand but i know that you can learn the dim mak without the forms.


I bought a book years ago called western bubushi, you have this?

Whats your views on Evan Pantazi, George Dillman, Rick Moneymaker etc?

Garry
Go to Top of Page

dragonclaw



USA
735 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2006 :  09:48:15  Show Profile Send dragonclaw a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, and I didn't know Dim Mak actually HAD forms. I've never seen any of the masters i know have seperate forms for it. but there is a formula to point striking and some training methods for harnessing the right energy and structure, but no forms. unless that's also a new age thing!

The noise of the lover is only up to
the time when he has not seen his Beloved.
Once he sees the Beloved, he becomes calm and quiet,
just as the rivers are boisterous before they join the ocean,
but when they do so, there are becalmed forever.
Go to Top of Page

shihfu



Australia
90 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2006 :  18:16:18  Show Profile  Visit shihfu's Homepage Send shihfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of course one can learn Dim Mak without the forms. But the forms map out the applications, energies and striking methods.

Garry, I have not seen this book but I believe that my USA students are sending me a copy very soon. Is it a good book?

Dragonclaw,

The actual forms for Dim-Mak are the forms of one's style, one just needs to approach them from a Dim-Mak point of view and application.


I'm a person, a seeker, not a "martial artist"
Go to Top of Page

3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2006 :  20:40:04  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anything can be used as dim mak, you dont need forms but if you wanna see what the old masters was trying to put together and tarin the forms can be useful. The thing that makes forms interesting is the dim mak applications some what although no one these days are really showing dim mak apart from a few knock outs to stomach 9 and the gook gee (sp) Large intestine on the arm, Gall Bladder back of the head, Triple heater near the ear etc. Alot of these points you dont need time or day, session just correct angle and ging.

Garry
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Southern Kung Fu Net Online Community © 2007 NYSouthernKungFuAssociates Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000
RSS Feed 1 RSS Feed 2
Powered by ForumCo 2000-2008
TOS - AUP - URA - Privacy Policy