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method man



United Kingdom
283 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2006 :  10:08:35  Show Profile Send method man a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be honest the word Dao as a path means you can belive in god and jesus and still be on your own personal dao. In fact I have read numerous texts some in chinese some in english many on internal cultivation and alchemy. Garry you can claim to be following your dao, but it is different to the dao I follow. Having a broad knowledge of all things regardless of where the informantion is from and deriving your opinion from these by taking the most balenced view (middle path) is my personal dao. And is closer to the daoism practiced in china from the late 1800s onwards. I know that acupuncture works but I belive It is directly related to the mind, so called Chi meridians are guides to placing needles that produce mind - altering effects. If you imagine energy moving from the core of your body along the same path as the bodies largest veins and arteries than imagine it going into your hand. Has energy traveled there or is it the mind directing oxygenated blood and plasma filled with endorphines and other hormones. If you were treating a farmer from a rural village in china 100 years ago what would be easier for him to imagine a network of simple lines or complex human physiology. We know from psychology that simple imagery that is easy to focus on produce greater effects. You dont have to know how imagery works for it to work but somebody must so that improvments and inovations can be made, the chinese are in fact very pragmatic people and produced many technological inovations including gun powder. As a member of society you dont have to contribute towards society, or you can contribute and remain rewardless, content that you have furthered humanity. Remeber that the Dao De Jing was written for the ruler of a country and advocated interfering to greatly in the natural order of peoples lives, as this would increase resentment and fuel colapse of the social order leading to periods of suffering and hardship for the people at large. It does not advocate as many Whould be 'Daoists' claim that people should sit and do nothing and is a key misunderstanding of the daosit concept of Wu wei.
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A.Q. Men



89 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2006 :  11:20:14  Show Profile Send A.Q. Men a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by method man

Having a broad knowledge of all things regardless of where the informantion is from and deriving your opinion from these by taking the most balenced view (middle path) is my personal dao. And is closer to the daoism practiced in china from the late 1800s onwards.

I belive It is directly related to the mind, so called Chi meridians are guides to placing needles that produce mind - altering effects. If you imagine energy moving from the core of your body along the same path as the bodies largest veins and arteries than imagine it going into your hand. Has energy traveled there or is it the mind directing oxygenated blood and plasma filled with endorphines and other hormones.



Well said! This is very akin to what I'm trying to say too...at least on the personal dao level.

On the energy and mind level I'm sure you'll find the articles (curse my scanner!) I will post interesting!



Sincerely, A.Q. Men

The game of life is the game of boomerangs. Our thoughts, deeds and words return to us sooner or later, with astounding accuracy.
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A.Q. Men



89 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2006 :  11:26:34  Show Profile Send A.Q. Men a Private Message  Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by hasayfu

AQM, you have totally ignored the intent of this thread and speak of the placebo affect. You gave an article to debunk it but it actually supports it. And if all TCM is a method to engage the placebo effect, does that make it not useful?


Huh? It seemed to me that you opened by (mis)stating my position about TCM being useful in a way similar to the placebo affect. Therefore, I clarified the misstatement and also posted articles about the placebo affect. I wasn't trying to de-bunk the placebo affect. What led you to this misunderstanding?

Anyway, I did suggest that the placebo affect may not be the best parallel for understanding chi/qi. Do you feel otherwise? Perhaps you could explain your own views? (instead of mis-stating mine?)

Or perhaps you're referring to the aside comments on other topics, like Whyte's book? I certainly would have thought a tangent here or there quite normal. Apologies if they've wound up high-jacking your thread. Or perhaps you refer to my question of 000? If so, aren't his (non)answers just as off the mark as my own?

quote:

So what is really motivating you here? Are you not satisfied until you can get us to agree that TCM is just a bunch of religious mumbo jumbo with no validity? Are you only satisfied if we can explain in perfectly scientific terms how TCM works?


Why does the questions of my motives keep coming up? I've stated my motives time and again. I have never said that TCM is "religious mumbo jumbo." In fact, I've stated the opposite. Likewise, I thought we'd agreed in another thread that to discuss TCM we would need to avoid the mumbo-jumbo. Didn't you yourself say something like "take out the voodoo"?

To be sure, I've found some interesting articles that outline the greater context I refer to often. And they also seem to support your assertions about an "Eastern Mind" approach. I guess we'll see once my scanner+OCR tech gets working properly. Again...if posting the "preview," has highjacked your thread, it was not intentional. Sorry!

quote:

Many people greater then us have tried both and not succeeded yet. I doubt we will. I propose we bring it back from the abstract to some tangible practices. What is really bugging you about TCM/Qi-gong?


Nothing bugs me about TCM. It is an interesting field of study, with a rich history and much documentation and evidence. Simply puts, its ignorance of this greater context, and the following faulty conclusions, that I find vexxing.

As if that bears repeating, TCM has been shown effective in treating some ailments...though not all. And in some it has proven abismal. So? Same is true of any medical practice...modern, western included. Still, I am interested to see what other folks think of chi and how they use it in martial arts.

For me both martial and medical arts are a good area to pursue this because there is a non-arbitrary end. In martial arts, one guy wins and the other doesn't. If chi/qi can do that predictably and reliably, I want in. As I've said before, metaphorically...it seems to work wonders. However, I've not experienced anything that makes me fear chi/qi blasts.

For medical arts, the patient is cured (more quickly) or he/she isn't. Again, the approach seems to have some results. But I've not experienced anything that makes me run to a TCM doc for curing my infections.

For those who prefer simplicity... What bugs me is the obvious contradictions, equivocations and purposeful avoidance of questions when asserting that chi/qi does/must work. And I find myself in good standing with the TCM experts...perhaps even the ones HaSayFu seems to think are failing at bringing TCM in line with modern understanding...like Liang Bing Zhong (who I've mentioned several times before). I tend to disagree that they are failing, by the way.

Sincerely, A.Q. Men

The game of life is the game of boomerangs. Our thoughts, deeds and words return to us sooner or later, with astounding accuracy.

Edited by - A.Q. Men on 05/05/2006 11:29:42
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hasayfu



USA
95 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2006 :  13:11:56  Show Profile  Visit hasayfu's Homepage Send hasayfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AQM, I'm not sure how we keep missing each other but we do. *sigh* It's both ways so don't take this as putting all the blame on you.

I will stop taking your comments as debunking (or at least try to). Unfortunately, when I read comments like:
The important thing to note is that in none of these cases is the patient actually "cured." They either get better 'cause they were getting better already (#1), anamolies in testing (#2), re-interpretation of symptoms (#3). I think most mis-understand #3 as a "cure." Patients may feel better...but may actually be the same.

I get the feeling you are trying to broadly discount my points. You then offer for me to read classic "debunk" reading like Pinker and Penn and Teller. Not that they are bad or wrong but their approach to a "mysterious answer" is not to understand what parts are good and what parts are bad but to highlight the really ridiculous parts and gloss over the rest. This then leads me to spend effort either showing that the same broad brush can be painted against the very things they do support or having to dig around for the counters.

I admit, I then get into that mode with your writing. This particular article you quoted is especially damaging because your emphasis was that the placebo effect has no value. That patients just "thought" they were better and were not actually better. But the article didn't really say that. In fact it used as it's basis a study where the results of a sham surgery and real surgery produced similar results. That it was just the fact that they were being worked on may have caused improvement.

That said, keep the direct references coming. I don't mind when you quote actual passages or articles we can discuss those. I don't feel that derails anything. It's referencing entire books or just writers and saying that will "will help clarify the discussions!" I don't want to think like them. I have my own thoughts but I'm willing to discuss their theories.

This gets us to the curx of this thread:
Anyway, I did suggest that the placebo affect may not be the best parallel for understanding chi/qi. Do you feel otherwise? Perhaps you could explain your own views? (instead of mis-stating mine?)
Fair enough. I felt I've been clear when I state:
I say, it's very daoist to allow the body to do most of the healing and building itself. While some of the portion of the medicine is the chemical reaction, I think a larger part is that TCM taps into the power of the body.

So to be clearer, yes, I think a lot of TCM (not all) has to do with the placebo effect. That the "ritual" it goes through engages whatever the body needs to do to make the right things happen. This is along the lines of method man's quote that you liked.

And that leads to my comment, I can't explain WHY squeezing my fists and humming a tune may make me feel better but it does. Time and time again and others who follow the same ritual as well.

For Liang, I did not discount his statements. See my response. I said that his statements cut both ways. While it does no one any good to hide behind the 5 elements, it's equally useless to only view TCM through the lens of WSM. Did you get a chance to read the HKAM articles? Maybe you can post the entirety of Liang's article. I noticed that the title looks like a good one.

Hopefully we are understanding each other better now.

BTW, method man and 3CM, I really like your input. Others, I'm sure you have experiences with TCM and WSM and your Kung Fu. Share those. Then we can add them to the anecdotal evidence we all have.
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A.Q. Men



89 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2006 :  08:49:06  Show Profile Send A.Q. Men a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Greetings all,

The promised article, along with clarification on my motives and expectations, is posted. It can be found You must be logged in to see this link.

Sincerely, A.Q. Men

The game of life is the game of boomerangs. Our thoughts, deeds and words return to us sooner or later, with astounding accuracy.
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Alerten22



USA
104 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2006 :  23:35:50  Show Profile  Send Alerten22 a Yahoo! Message Send Alerten22 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hasayfu


This goes along the lines of laugh therapy. Scientists can't explain why laughter makes you feel better but they can measure it's effects. They try to explain it with the endorphines released while laughing but if those same things are artificially introduced into the body, they do not have any of the same effects and cause unwanted side effects.

thoughts?


To this comment, i can tell you a lot of people are talking about stuff in the dark. People don't know enough to say something like this. Thus the reason there shouldn't be a discussion about laughter and why it is caused.


quote:
Originally posted by hasayfu


AQM in past discussions has usually attributed much of Qi-Gong to just believing something works so it works. But if tested, the results are not "scientific"


I have to totally agree with AQM here. Even though it is generally accepted in society as "scientific". The reality is that tests can be flawed and that is the main point here. Weather Qi-Gong can be proven weather it is tested because (for whatever reason they are done) doesn't matter weather people believe in it or not. that doesn't make it fact.

Although i've heard from many people the same thing often from many different sources, although only told the same thing. "It has been proven that if people believe in something, it becomes true." now i believe this test was done the same way the referrence to the Qi-Gong being tested was. So yes it isn't "scientiffic" although it is very wierd that it turns out being correct. On the larger scale the same thing is tested and believe to be proven (once again only society accepts it as scientiffic even though i believe, and a lot of people wouldn't believe it to be scientiffic) "It has been proven that if enough people believe in something, it becomes true." Although this is more of a discussion that gets into religion most of the time.

I later, in due time, hope to address all the posts being made instead of just the first 2 in this thread.


The Rigid person is a disciple of death; The soft, supple, and delicate are lovers of life. -Lao Tzu

Edited by - Alerten22 on 05/29/2006 23:49:42
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Alerten22



USA
104 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2006 :  16:50:09  Show Profile  Send Alerten22 a Yahoo! Message Send Alerten22 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hasayfu


This gets us to the curx of this thread:
Anyway, I did suggest that the placebo affect may not be the best parallel for understanding chi/qi. Do you feel otherwise? Perhaps you could explain your own views? (instead of mis-stating mine?)
Fair enough. I felt I've been clear when I state:
I say, it's very daoist to allow the body to do most of the healing and building itself. While some of the portion of the medicine is the chemical reaction, I think a larger part is that TCM taps into the power of the body.

So to be clearer, yes, I think a lot of TCM (not all) has to do with the placebo effect. That the "ritual" it goes through engages whatever the body needs to do to make the right things happen. This is along the lines of method man's quote that you liked.



We can all have our views on TCM, although the reality is that we haven't learned it as a perfession givin it a chance till we have become profficiant in it yet. So there for we can only have views.

What i mean by the words "we can only have views", is we don't really know from the all the experiences we have had(meaning none). No knowledge has been aquired through the practice or trying to give it a chance of understanding. Reading something is one thing... it is a way another person (weather it is right or not) views or likes to explain what they know about the subject.

Therefor i personally would not judge till i learn how wrong it is. With my on personal beliefs in it or not. i can play the game of both if i feel and still realize within time if TCM is not working (in a medical way) then it isn't. but if the same thing happens and it does work then i have my own words to put into weather it is true or not, how it works.

I feel as if you guys are taking from the knowledge you learn from reading and trying to apply a theory to TCM. Furthermore, because of your source of information and how good your interpritation of that information is the real basis of your theory.

The Rigid person is a disciple of death; The soft, supple, and delicate are lovers of life. -Lao Tzu
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method man



United Kingdom
283 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2006 :  06:21:01  Show Profile Send method man a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have not herd from AQ men or a couple of you guys as of late, but to further our discussion a study by Tsang et al, 2006 looked at the effect of a Qigong exercise (intervention) on depressed geriatric patients. The study used a control group (social intervention) which would account for placebo effect and social interaction which has been a propsed mechanism in previous exercise-depression studies. The qigong group had a significant effect on depression levels, and the proposel of the author is that it is due to regulation of the HPA axis, which is strongly linked to other physiological systems including the immune system.
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Alerten22



USA
104 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2007 :  01:09:22  Show Profile  Send Alerten22 a Yahoo! Message Send Alerten22 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you really wanna research and study about these effects. H"How Chi Gong trainning and help depression" you could try and study about how Jing effects people... find out deep stuff how the eastern world looks a "Jing" and how it effects people. You could also try and learn more about it. By studying the Endocine System, (which is part of the immune system) and basically all secreations that happen from self made chemicles and hormones made in the body... (just as research reference you can use those things to help understand more indepth things about what your talking about, Method Man.

The Rigid person is a disciple of death; The soft, supple, and delicate are lovers of life. -Lao Tzu
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