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hasayfu


USA
95 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2006 :  02:46:47  Show Profile  Visit hasayfu's Homepage Send hasayfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK, the food thread was a total dud. How will this one do?

AQM in past discussions has usually attributed much of Qi-Gong to just believing something works so it works. But if tested, the results are not "scientific"

I say, it's very daoist to allow the body to do most of the healing and building itself. While some of the portion of the medicine is the chemical reaction, I think a larger part is that TCM taps into the power of the body.

This goes along the lines of laugh therapy. Scientists can't explain why laughter makes you feel better but they can measure it's effects. They try to explain it with the endorphines released while laughing but if those same things are artificially introduced into the body, they do not have any of the same effects and cause unwanted side effects.

thoughts?

3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2006 :  02:53:34  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doesnt chi and sound work on vibration! ;)
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A.Q. Men



89 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2006 :  13:03:17  Show Profile Send A.Q. Men a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 3 Circle Method

Doesnt chi and sound work on vibration! ;)

000 - perhaps you could explain it for us?

HaSayFu,
Sorry that the other one dudded. I got sent on a whirlwind trip of Greater China. It happens.

I'm back now and can probably pick up again.

While away, I read You must be logged in to see this link.. I will be posting pithy bits to the two reference threads. In the meantime, I suggest spending an afternoon with it. It will help clarify the discussions!

BTW, I never said that chi/qi was reliant on placebo-like psychosomatics...at least I didn't mean to. What I remember asking was "if chi/qi only works on people who believe...isn't dis-belief the best defence against martial artists who can wield it?"

Anyway, here's an interesting You must be logged in to see this link. just for fun. The important bit relating to TCM apparatus...

quote:
These findings suggest that the medical ritual of a device can deliver an enhanced placebo effect beyond that of a placebo pill. There are many conditions in which ritual is irrelevant when compared with drugs, such as in treatment of a bacterial infection," said Kaptchuk, "but the other extreme may also be true. In some cases, the ritual may be the critical component.



Perhaps more importantly is this You must be logged in to see this link.

quote:
The placebo effect: Many define the placebo effect broadly as any measurable change in the patient's condition while receiving a placebo. There are three potential reasons for improvement.

1. The first includes natural history. Since many patients present for care when their symptoms have worsened, the natural history of many of these patients will be to improve.

2. The second is a statistical property known as regression to the mean. For example, patients chosen to be in a study because of a high value, like high blood pressure, are more likely to have a lower value, or normal blood pressure, when their blood pressure is taken again.

3. The third reason is that there is an inherent psychophysiologic effect. For example, patients and physicians may expect a treatment to work and this expectation may lead the patient to change the interpretation of his or her symptoms.


The important thing to note is that in none of these cases is the patient actually "cured." They either get better 'cause they were getting better already (#1), anamolies in testing (#2), re-interpretation of symptoms (#3). I think most mis-understand #3 as a "cure." Patients may feel better...but may actually be the same.

Reading a bit further, we find a lot of questions, dating way back...meaning it may not be a fruitful pursuit when explaining chi/qi, unless we can find a way to test for it.

quote:
The history of the placebo effect in research:
Interest in the placebo effect dates back to the early 1950s with the work of H.K. Beecher... (who) reported that on average, symptoms were "satisfactorily" relieved in 35 percent of patients in these studies. This has led to the widely quoted statement that placebos have about a 35 percent response rate.

However, some investigators have reviewed this data and questioned its veracity. These investigators noted a wide range of response rates from 15 percent to 58 percent. Thus, in addition to the debate as to whether the placebo effect is some nonspecific effect more than natural history and regression to the mean, there is debate as to the magnitude of the placebo effect.


And speaking of tests...someone mentioned that chi/qi might be the lifeforce that makes us alive. Have you read the studies of folks looking for the soul? The guys who put dying people on incredibly sensitive scales to see if they weighed less before and after death? They found no difference...so, if chi/qi is indeed the explanation, we must add "weightless" to the list with things like "its energy, but not part of the EM spectrum or magnetic, etc."

Maybe 000 will be able to help out though...?



Sincerely, A.Q. Men

The game of life is the game of boomerangs. Our thoughts, deeds and words return to us sooner or later, with astounding accuracy.

Edited by - A.Q. Men on 05/03/2006 13:35:24
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hasayfu



USA
95 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2006 :  17:21:41  Show Profile  Visit hasayfu's Homepage Send hasayfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AQM,

I looked at the comments of Whyte's book and it doesn't sound like one I'm into. He appears to have an agenda so of course he's going to skew the data to fit his agenda. One of the most telling comments was:
"I have a pretty good idea what his political biases are (which I should not be able to figure out if he is indeed perfectly logical), and his attitude towards religion (contemptuous dismissiveness) is not going to win him any friends among the 90-some percent of Americans who believe in God."

while he did get good reviews too, I don't have the energy to read such things.

Getting to the articles on placebo (the topic of this thread) I thought those were great finds and I thank you. I find it amusing(?!) that you decide to quote the contrary data but totally ignore the intent of the second article.
quote:
However, it is important to reemphasize that the placebo effect has been a major force leading to the dissemination of surgical procedures. There is evidence that suggests the size and magnitude of the placebo (for example, two pills versus one pill, or bigger pills versus smaller pills) can affect the size of the placebo effect.... patients receiving the active intervention were not hysically better than those receiving the placebo intervention.


While you say the important thing is that the patients may not actually be better, the article actually makes the argument. That the surgical intervention did no better then the placebo intervention. Maybe the guy doing brain surgery did get lucky :)

The lifeforce comment belongs in the other thread.
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3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2006 :  17:40:50  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I cant and i dont care to know i just do and im happy!
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3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2006 :  17:42:13  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just thought that Thought and sound, energy can travel through vibrations am i right or wrong?

Garry
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hasayfu



USA
95 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2006 :  17:44:02  Show Profile  Visit hasayfu's Homepage Send hasayfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, I think 3CM is relating laughter to a form of Qi-gong and thus why it's effective.
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3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2006 :  20:23:06  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The OM is a vibration and considered the primordial 1st sound or vibration that created life in hindu believes, like a bing bang maybe?

Everything is a vibration!!!
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A.Q. Men



89 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2006 :  04:01:16  Show Profile Send A.Q. Men a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hasayfu

I looked at the comments of Whyte's book and it doesn't sound like one I'm into. He appears to have an agenda so of course he's going to skew the data to fit his agenda. One of the most telling comments was


I'll admit the guy has an axe to grind. Nevertheless, his observations and examples on using logic to explain things is priceless.

After all, having agenda doesn't mean your opinions are wrong (ie not supported by evidence). I mean, imagine that a co-worker and I have a mutual boss and only one of our business plans can be given a green light. Obviously, we both have an agenda...we want our plans chosen. However, does that have any bearing on which plan is best? Likewise, Whyte's political agenda has nothing do to with his points about logically discussing something.

(Will move the other "weighing the dead" point. BTW...did anyone else have Monty Python's "bring out your dead...(meowr!)..." running through their head after that?)

Sincerely, A.Q. Men

The game of life is the game of boomerangs. Our thoughts, deeds and words return to us sooner or later, with astounding accuracy.
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method man



United Kingdom
283 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2006 :  05:13:29  Show Profile Send method man a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would like to take up some of your points A.Q. Men. I found it interesting that you used blood pressure when illustrating your point about regression to the mean. While regression to the mean is a statistical difficulty that is combated in testing by using a randomized control group. The main problem with blood pressure is the amount of variables that act upon it. As a sports scientist I regually take blood pressure from people and the result changes according to what time of day it is, when they last ate, what and how much they ate, If they have recently exerted themselves, the type of exertion, the temperature in the testing room, if they are suffering from a disease or injury, if they are standing, siting or lying down when taking the test, there general mood, there relationship with the tester and the amount of times they have previously been tested. The problem with testing the human organism is that it is constantly striving for Homeostasis but is rarly in a state of complete balance.
Most physiological systems work by counter balence, on a simple cellular level the sodium/potasium pump exchages +potasium for -sodium to carry an action potential. but a cell is never completly positive or completly negative. this seems to correlate to ideas of ying and yang and balence that are prevailant in Eastern theories of body function. sound can have a direct effect on the body through vibration, however sounds affect on the mind may play a more important role.
Recently I have been concentraing most of my time and effort on motor control, modes of perception etc. An interesting paper I came across by Eimer (2004) on masked stimuli, concludes that stimuli that fall below detection level still effect apparently 'free' choice in response alternatives. Who knows what apparently undetectable or seemingly insignificant, random variables might affect our minds and through that our bodies to either heal ourselves or make us worse.
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A.Q. Men



89 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2006 :  07:11:34  Show Profile Send A.Q. Men a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Method Man...your input is much appreciated! I find it fascinating.

To be honest, I just threw up the articles as I was searching for the thing on Beecher. It was late and I wasn't thinking things through. Consider it "mental vomit." Apologies!

quote:
Originally posted by method man
Recently I have been concentraing most of my time and effort on motor control, modes of perception etc. An interesting paper I came across by Eimer (2004) on masked stimuli, concludes that stimuli that fall below detection level still effect apparently 'free' choice in response alternatives. Who knows what apparently undetectable or seemingly insignificant, random variables might affect our minds and through that our bodies to either heal ourselves or make us worse.



My question is with the "who knows" at the end. You're right, we might find new explanations of what affects our minds, etc. But certainly it isn't going to radically revolutionize things. It will be built on what we know.

For example, we can also calculate very accurately the additional affects of gravity on human blood...human tide, if you will. Can we seriously expect that will affect people? After millions of years of evolution, we should expect that we function very well within this biosphere, wouldn't you think?

Having said that, could you provide more information on the Eimer study? Like the title, the guy/gal's first name, etc.? It sounds like a good read!

And...as a preview of coming attractions...I also picked up two other books while away. Planes and trains, while tiring, means I get to read. Both of them are about science and technology in China...one in English, the other in Chinese. And both with interesting bits on TCM. Look for that info in the reference threads.


Sincerely, A.Q. Men

The game of life is the game of boomerangs. Our thoughts, deeds and words return to us sooner or later, with astounding accuracy.
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method man



United Kingdom
283 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2006 :  09:16:20  Show Profile Send method man a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess the potential for positive or negative effects depends on how much power you attribute to the mind, and if there is a link between perception, cognition and the unconcious mind that regulates the internal mechnaism and maintains homeostasis, it would be damn difficult to test and would require experts in the field of physiology, psychology and motor control plus a load of expensive equipment. Plus to have a measurable effect I am guessing the masked stimuli would have to be applied over a long period of time, then how would you control for other variables that the subjects may encounter. then there is the ethics rating of test which would have a hard time passing most ethics boards.

the paper is Schlaghecken, S. Eimer, M. (2004) Masked prime stimuli can bias "free" choices between response alternatives. Psychonomic bulletin and Review,11,463-468
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3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2006 :  18:02:39  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does it matter what it is, or what matters is you can feel it and enjoy it, there is no explanation of how it works, its the mother of all things! The Tao is mysterious!

Garry
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A.Q. Men



89 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2006 :  23:50:14  Show Profile Send A.Q. Men a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 3 Circle Method

Does it matter what it is, or what matters is you can feel it and enjoy it, there is no explanation of how it works, its the mother of all things! The Tao is mysterious!



000,

This is a discussion forum. Where we talk about things. Why do you insist on making huge statements like "chi is the mother of all things" and then refusing to answer further questions?

Ultimately it's up to you whether you want to challenge your own beliefs or not, which must be hard since you've committed yourself to Taoist priesthood. However, if your only input is "do it" then...why don't you? Go do it, that is. You're not going to get anything out of these discussions if you don't enjoy the challenge of expressing yourself clearly and engaging other people's information and perspectives.

As for practice...please, no one get me wrong. It is the most important thing. Its just that it can't be done through the Internet...at least not a chat forum. What I recommend is meeting interesting and knowledgable people here, and when possible meet up and practice together. That was done successfully several times in the past via Southern Fist. Hopefully we can do it here too.



Sincerely, A.Q. Men

The game of life is the game of boomerangs. Our thoughts, deeds and words return to us sooner or later, with astounding accuracy.
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hasayfu



USA
95 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2006 :  02:51:27  Show Profile  Visit hasayfu's Homepage Send hasayfu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AQM, you have totally ignored the intent of this thread and speak of the placebo affect. You gave an article to debunk it but it actually supports it. And if all TCM is a method to engage the placebo effect, does that make it not useful?

It's a big tenant that correlation != causation. But if correlation is consistent and predictable, maybe the link is just unknown.

These us to the next level of these discussions. So far they have been abstract and trying to set the foundation of what we are talking about. I think we have done about all we can there. So what is really motivating you here? Are you not satisfied until you can get us to agree that TCM is just a bunch of religious mumbo jumbo with no validity? Are you only satisfied if we can explain in perfectly scientific terms how TCM works?

Many people greater then us have tried both and not succeeded yet. I doubt we will. I propose we bring it back from the abstract to some tangible practices. What is really bugging you about TCM/Qi-gong?
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3 Circle Method



Australia
1539 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2006 :  03:11:19  Show Profile  Visit 3 Circle Method's Homepage  Click to see 3 Circle Method's MSN Messenger address Send 3 Circle Method a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AQMEN

There is no explaination IMHO why there is chi, where did it come from and how i feel it! I just do it and forget about why and how because daoist dont need to know, you think that all daoist are into why if and when, when some are not into it and stay away from all the attatchments like this, its like who is god question?

If i say im part of the Dao cause i feel it you cant say otherwise and i have no need to argue that your belief is wrong or right cause i do not care!

All that matters is i practise chi kung and meditation and connect, once i connect i am not interested in what if's or what is.

I do enjoy reading what you are trying to work out and discover but there is not much proof just belief. I am not a scholar type daoist follower i am just a daoist living by the Dao not needing worrying about what you are after cause its just words and thoughts, which are yours and not mine.

Thanks for sharing what you have to say i do enjoy reading just like the rest of the guys.

Garry
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